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Mark Camperell is the founder and creative director at Empty Sea Audio. His leadership and ability to assemble uniquely talented audio teams has positioned Empty Sea Audio as a leader in creative audio services ranging from sonic branding to original music composition to full service post audio packages.
LBB> What was your first experience of leadership?
Mark> Early on, leadership can take many forms. From playground games to youth sports teams to group projects in school. I feel like those all lay the foundation for leadership in the professional world.
I can recall a time early in my professional career where I was getting a sort-of dressing down for not cutting a scene’s sound effects properly. I took all the notes and at the end said I’d address them. The reality though was that I didn’t cut the sound effects in question. Another person on the team did. I relayed the notes to that person and moved on. Regardless of whether I cut those specific sound effects or not, it was a learning experience. I wasn’t a lead on the project, I was just another cog in the machine. I could’ve been a competitive jerk and kept the notes to myself, but I passed them along instead. That day I earned the respect of my teammate and showed my creative lead that I could be humble. These are both necessary for great leadership.
LBB> How did you figure out what kind of leader you wanted to be – or what kind of leader you didn’t want to be?
Mark> I think a lot of what has influenced me as a leader is that I’ve seen many bad examples of leadership. Some of this comes from teachers in school, case studies I had to do, and high school jobs I held. Teachers with lots of practical experience who couldn’t find a way to connect it to the classroom. Retail managers I had who didn’t communicate expectations well or didn’t know what motivated their workers. Authoritarianism. There was a lot in my past that’s been shown to be ineffective.
One middle school math teacher I had would tear up improperly formatted work using a method he referred to as “the claw.” We had to follow formatting instructions down to the letter. I remember one instance where I was working on some problems during some free time in class and he came over and used “the claw” to tear up my work. I asked him why he did it and he said, “no answer column.” I told him that I always wrote the answer column last to force myself to check my work. He just kind of shrugged and walked away. I had to start all over. This man later became the principal of the high school I went to. Imagine living under that kind of fear on a day-to-day basis that if you put one toe even close to the line you’d be instantly and unapologetically punished. It’s not a great way to ingratiate yourself with your subordinates. From that day on, I knew I didn’t want to be that type of leader. I wanted to connect with people and find ways to make everyone’s work better, not make everyone miserable. It was obviously a formative lesson though as I’m still telling the story some 30 years later.
I’ve seen first-hand at multiple places where young, high-ceiling talent is desired, but not rewarded properly. It’s swept under the rug when clients are around, and it certainly isn’t well compensated. It’s blamed when convenient for those in charge to deflect criticism. I can think of many times where teams were forced to work through lunch or late into the evening with no concessions for meal breaks. I’ve never liked the feeling of slogging through a long day while simultaneously feeling tired, hungry, and underappreciated. I’ve seen other issues too, like a firm resistance to adding new plugins and other audio tools to workstations, that might be necessary for a project. Sometimes limitations can be helpful, but not having the right tools for a job will handcuff someone’s creativity. Other places I worked; I was responsible for paying for my own parking too. Working for an hour, just to cover a day’s parking cost never is a good feeling. Addressing these details can make an employee or freelancer feel valued and that their contributions are meaningful.
I made sure that when I started my own company that I would never make my people feel inadequate or unworthy when I was the one relying on their incredible efforts to reach my personal and professional goals. Pre-pandemic when we had freelancers coming to the studio to work, I would make sure that lunch was taken care of. When the building stopped giving out complimentary parking validations to tenants, I made sure to cover the parking for my freelancers. Now, if people must work late or on the weekend, I make sure to send them DoorDash, or other food delivery service credits so they can be fed while sacrificing their time outside of normal business hours. If someone needs a specific plugin for a project, I make sure to help cover that cost for them. Thoughtful concessions can go a long way to maintaining loyalty. Valued team members, whether employees or freelancers, will usually go the extra mile.
LBB> What experience or moment gave you your biggest lesson in leadership?
Mark> Oh, easily being laid off. There’s nothing like being shown the door as a lesson in leadership. For me, there was no exit interview. No postmortem. Just, “we’re going a different direction. We’re losing some people. You’re included.”
There’s shock, anger, resentment, embarrassment, denial, bargaining. All the stages of grief and then some. The result of which made me take a long, hard look at myself and outwardly about what lead to the situation and how things could’ve been improved. That experience laid a lot of groundwork for who I wanted to be as a leader.
LBB> Did you know you always wanted to take on a leadership role? If so how did you work towards it and if not, when did you start realising that you had it in you?
Mark> I feel like I had it in me from an early age. I was placed in roles by teachers or managers where I was up front on projects. Numerous times academically I was asked to tutor students in my own class. In college, I taught technical sound editorial labs to graduate students when I was an undergraduate. It became kind of a routine request from teachers. I had the ability to retain information in a way that could be communicated effectively to my peers.
When I started out professionally as a sound designer, I thought that maybe one day I’d like to have my own shop. I never envisioned that it would happen as early as it did though. My hand was forced through the lay-off I mentioned previously. I started Empty Sea Audio with only 3.5 years of professional experience. I wouldn’t say that I worked toward it. It just happened. But when it did happen, I did my best to do everything in my power to make sure people wanted to work with me, both clients and freelancers.
LBB> When it comes to ‘leadership’; as a skill, how much do you think is a natural part of personality, how much can be taught and learned?
Mark> I think that there are people who show leadership potential but that potential needs to be cultivated. The fact that there are volumes of material on the subject tells you that some people, at least, think that it can be learned. So, I guess it’s a little bit nature and a little bit nurture. I think that’s what happened in my case. I had an early aptitude for it and was lucky enough to have people notice that and help me to cultivate it. Looking back though, I realize that I often put myself into positions to be seen as a leader by either overtly asking for the opportunity or by stepping up when someone else faltered.
LBB> What are the aspects of leadership that you find most personally challenging? And how do you work through them?
Mark> I’ve never really liked the term boss to begin with. It always has sounded too authoritarian. I prefer leader. To me, that means finding out what makes someone tick and helping them feel like they’re getting everything they need to succeed. Motivation. Value. Respect. But, everyone needs different things: public recognition, money, time off. Some people just want an organized and smooth project.
Personally, I find it can be uncomfortable to figure out what exactly someone needs to be properly motivated. Yes, unfortunately some people want a heavy-handed boss. “Just tell me what to do!” Others don’t want to be told what to do, they want to be shepherded to a solution. Others need to gripe about the project, client, situation, etc… before they can put their heads down and get going. I call this type of person “the belly-acher.” It’s fine, I know they just need to get it out there and then they’ll put their head down and get to work. The initial discovery of how people like to be managed can be prickly, but learning what they need is necessary. In the end it will allow them to be more effective at what they had been hired them to do, and that is bring value to the team and projects.
LBB> Have you ever felt like you’ve failed whilst in charge? How did you address the issue and what did you learn from it?
Mark> There’s been a few times where I’ve failed to properly communicate a client’s needs to the team. In those cases, it’s obvious that I’ve failed because what I get back from the team doesn’t match up well at all with what I had in mind. Another example is if the feedback from the client shows that we completely missed the mark. The important thing to do in these situations is to own up to the failure and work to make it right. Whether with the team or with the client. Owning up to failure is big. Over time, I believe I’ve learned how to communicate with clients and my team to ensure that things are correct the first time. Or in our world maybe correct isn’t attainable first pass, but at least close enough that we’re in the ballpark.
In terms of leadership and openness, what’s your approach there? Do you think it’s important to be transparent as possible in the service of being authentic? Or is there a value in being careful and considered?
I like to be open with my team. I don’t try to beat around the bush, and we often don’t have time for roundabout direction. My feedback is usually quick and direct. I also encourage the team to ask lots of questions so that we can all be on the same page. With my responses though I always try to picture what motivates that specific person. This way I can stay within the boundaries of what’s going to allow them to be the most effective.
With clients I usually play it much closer to the chest. You never want to give the impression that a project may have gone off the rails. Showing a steadfast façade can go a long way to preventing panic. Some clients are chaos operators though and you have no choice but to mirror their level of intensity. It happens, I get it. Inwardly, I try to be the leader my team needs and outwardly, the leader my client needs to see.
As you developed your leadership skills did you have a mentor, if so who were/are they and what have you learned? And on the flip side, do you mentor any aspiring leaders and how do you approach that relationship?
I never really had a mentor per-se. There were people whose approval I sought but there wasn’t a lot of teaching involved from that direction. It’s something I wouldn’t mind doing for someone else as my career progresses.
LBB> In continually changing market circumstances, how do you cope with the responsibility of leading a team through difficult waters?
Mark> The cyclical nature of our business isn’t easy to navigate. I try to mitigate the pressures on the team by first allowing them to be freelancers. They’re free to take any, and all work that comes to them. They aren’t beholden to Empty Sea Audio. I try to treat my team in such a way though that when I need them to work for me, they’re available.
That means competitive pay and good conditions. I try my level best to make sure we have a bunch of work in so that people can stay busy. This isn’t always the case, but I try very hard to make sure that people have things to do. This last year hasn’t been the easiest, but I’ve been taking less work for myself and trying to spread it around so the team feels supported. At the end of the day, it's better for me to make sure that I’m not building a completely new team every couple of years, so keeping the needs of the team in mind is always at the forefront of my thinking.
LBB> As a leader, what are some of the ways in which you’ve prioritised diversity and inclusion within your workforce?
Mark> When we need to add people to the team for a project or even longer term, I make sure to post our listings far and wide. I post to the standard job boards within our industry and directly with institutions like the Women’s Audio Mission, for example. I make every attempt to cast a wide net so that we’re getting submissions from a lot of talent from a lot of different walks of life. I try to personally read every resume that comes in. I read every LinkedIn connection request we get. I’m looking for reasons to hire somebody, not for reasons to turn someone down. I understand that marginalized groups haven’t always been given the opportunity to gain the kind of experience one would expect, but we try to look at things through that lens.
LBB> How important is your company culture to the success of your business? And how have you managed to keep it alive with increases in remote and hybrid working patterns?
Mark> We’ve almost always been a remote or hybrid business. Our office space pre-pandemic was small. We had just 2 studios, a larger mix space and a smaller edit space. Most projects allowed for people to work in their own studios and we’d bring things together at the end to mix. Sound people spend a lot of time all alone in dark, windowless rooms so being remote has never been something that’s been a big hinderance or challenge for us. Now, if we need more space to do a large-format playback, we will four-wall a studio space to accommodate clients in-person.
LBB> What are the most useful resources you’ve found to help you along your leadership journey?
Mark> I took a class in college that was literally titled “Leadership.” It was a tremendous resource. We went over many case studies in that class about successes and failures from all kinds of areas. Business. Sports. Military. We covered a lot of material, and we broke down each case into actionable items that could be useful in life and the business world. Education is a wonderful thing and if you feel you lack aptitude in certain areas, there are certainly ways to improve your position. There are many books on the topic of leadership, or about great leaders, or even things that are adjacent to leadership. Things like influence, communication, and structure. Literally thousands of titles out there. Although I’ve always been a firm believer of learning by doing. Try to lead. Put yourself out there. You’ll find yourself thinking about problems in a whole different light when you’re not the only person who has stake in what’s happening.
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